Conservative podcast host Allie Beth Stuckey and political commentator David French debated on her show, where they both criticized the idea of "toxic empathy" in conservative circles. French, who still claims to be conservative, argued that such tactics show a lack of empathy and would mark "moral folly". Stucckey countered that such a refusal to penalize all involved in abortion is treating them unequally relative to born people. She argued that true equal protection of the laws for preborn babies would require criminalizing abortion as murder for all involved. While many states penalize third-party abortionists and fathers who participate in abortion, pro-life states have exemptions in their laws keeping abortion legal for women. Major pro-lifist groups routinely oppose equal protection bills that would impose these standards, and the leading state and national pro life groups have even signed an open letter against all equal protection legislation.